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 Must Read: Prestige Cost

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Change Prestige cost
Yes
38%
 38% [ 3 ]
No
62%
 62% [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 8
 

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Noctis
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PostSubject: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:21 am

Prestige

Well we all should hopefully know what Prestige is, but if you dont then here is a little summery. e


Prestige:
Prestige is like money on the site. It is something that one gains from doing missions as well as rping. It is what one will use to buy new abilites and weapons for their characters. Even team bases or houses. It is what you will need to evolve your character.

Prestige Cost:
Now after having a talk with Keita it was seen that some of us have gotten the cost confused and thought that they were lesser then what they actually were. And so Keita has asked that i put up a topic to get member feed back to see what you all think about the cost so that we can change them their is a problem.


Thought Cost:
These are what we thought the prestige prices for abilites would cost (Or well at least me and like one other member)

D Rank: 20 Prestige
C Rank: 30 Prestige
B Rank: 50 Prestige
A Rank: 70 Prestige
S Rank: 150 Prestige


Actual prestige Cost:
Sadly the prices i thought were wrong and turned out to be way higher.
D rank: 20
C rank: 50
B rank: 100
A rank: 220
S-rank: 370

Why do i think this is a problem:
Now i think this might actually be a small problem as this puts the prices at a very very high cost in my oppinion. This being due to the fact that i did run Pac on ingoo for a while. (That being the system Prestige is based off of.) And the main way people will get prestige is through rp now the average topic will get you about 20-30 prestige considering most topics dont even make it past like 15 post. This will make it very hard for some to rank up. Though this site does have another way to earn prestige i feel that it could be taken advantage of though it is a somwhat good idea it has a major flaw. But back to the topic on hand is that with the Prestige cost the way it is getting higher abilites will be hard especially when its going to come down to like it was on Ingoo with Amatsu being the Atag. (This is not me bashing Amatsu this is stating facts) But Amatsu's character is already the strongest on the site (I know he is legit and everyone had the same oppurtunity as him) And with him have numerous S rank abbilites and s protective shiled that needs S rank attacks to get through it. It will be almost impossible for anyone to touch Amatsu in awhile. And plus the fact he rps like crazy is going to mean he is going to get even stronger as we are all just trying to catch up to him. Lower Prestige prices will balance us all out with Amatsu but also make it easier to get stronger somewhat cause with the average prestige amount it would take at least like 5 or 6 good topics to get a S rank Ability.(this is if we use the thought prestige cost) Though what i understand is S rank attacks are far more powerfula and if it comes to it why not judge the cost of S rank abilites buy the attack when they are graded ?

(But honestly this is just all my Oppinion and this topic is for everyone who see's it to post what they think about the prestige price's)


Last edited by Noctis on Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:01 am

Honestly it was bad rule creation on the part of staff. I'm going to concede that point quite happily. We made a rule set that requires additional work on the part of members (and can possibly lead to screw-ups simply because of human error, everyone makes mistakes) and cause drama generally. On this point, I will apologise to everyone on behalf of staff.

Althou, it was there to be read. I added in the math when I did my characters abilities today because I saw that there was a potential issue here with the way in which people might look at the rules. Didn't expect people to want the pricings swapped around however. Now then, since I consider myself a member as much as I am a staffer, shouldn't be any issues with me kicking off the discussion.

On one hand, we can look at Amen as the gold standard for us to measure ourselves against. Aspire to defeat, seek to create an arsenal that could compare with his own. S' a nice thought, ain't it? When considering this point, I'd like everyone to recall the most basic fact of RP life. If you can't RP better then someone, chances are on you loosing to them. Even with Amen's overwhelming advantages, if we consider him a Kage, then someone who is a vastly better RPer who makes a Genin will still win. Mmkay? That said, he'll still rek a lot of people who try their hands against him. I'm not saying its an invalid point, just keep in mind that skill determines fights. Not technique rank.

So should they be reduced? If they do get reduced, I will personally recommend that we lose the Prestige previously associated with our characters. New slate, new everything. It'll be easier for us to pick up the pace and anyone else who comes to the site and they won't be as insanely far behind as they will be with these buffs. Otherwise, these high prices keep us from getting an insanely big jump compared to others.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:40 am

Reduce it or not it is fine to me. I created this site for you guys....that being said my character should not be the deciding factor for prices changing. There are a couple of reasons.....The first being I don't really plan on using Amen outside of some casual rp much. He is more or less a legit character to make sure no one blows up anything like the planet in the first few months. It makes no sense for me to make a site for members then turn around and bully you guys that's not the way this will work.

Everyone has the same opportunities to advance and pays the same prices rather reduced or not. My character is more advanced now because he was a powerhouse then and Frankly if Chrony came back she would be just as boss because she did just as much as I did. Realistically speaking I don't have the time to commit to rp that I used to have which is why I am so adamant about working all the bugs out and developing a solid staff so the site won't crash if I't out for a week.

Everyone wants to get strong quickly and I understand that. But you have to understand Marvel and Ingoo are two different scales. High ranking ability combinations on Marvel can annihilate PLANETS so the numbers are rightfully inflated. Here deities are common place so you have to look at the big picture. Marvel characters on here are designed for long term growth and development so people will always have something to achieve. So many sites people come max out everything, accomplish everything, and get burned out in a few weeks time. Power is fine and dandy and a large part of the site. But get some social development in and some cool plot. You band together with a legit team you won't care who the strongest is. That is simply my opinion...everyone else is free to voice their own as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:56 am

The key point Ford is making is that you do a restart and your character is already as powerful as you want it to be while mostly everyone else and new members are stuck like wtf, the reward you were trying to give for returning to old members has turned into giving them distinct advantages over new members and other old members who weren't super active, essentially the problem is you are giving huge advantage to old members while new people are like......"oh okay.....o.o Thats cool, I thought this was a restart but whatever."
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:49 am

I didn't see Ford make that point....but yeah pretty much. The way I understood what he said is either we leave it like it is....or if we reduce we wipe the slate clean completely. Thing is "I" never make a solo decision. More often than none I take the heat for any wrong decisions made because I am the WM and frankly Im not the type to say I don't make mistakes. But I did things this way because that is what the majority asked for. It was not "MY" idea... you don't know me that well yet so you don't understand that any decision I make it is usually a reflection of what the majority of the peeps asked for. Now if it doesn't work and later on they change their mind then that is another story. But "I" did not make this decision "MOST" of your peers made this decision. So now if people don't like the way it turned out then voice your opinion to have it changed.

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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:50 pm

Doesn't really matter who made the decision, when I said you by the way I more meant you as in the staff as a whole, not attacking Amen personally. I think its a dumb idea and the reason the whole would like this idea is because it gives them advantages over new people and they don't have to rp to get new stuff. It keeps the old stance and power structure in place and kinda nulls the point of restart just resets the world.  I do know you by the way...known you for a long time actually :3. I mean all its really done is shift people to new characters it seems and reset the world while maintain a system in which who ever had the most prestige gets the power(talking about before reset) and saying fuck you to new members and you have to rp a whole lot to catch and be on par with old members. I'm not saying this is bad, but this is totally the issue. I also think you might wanna look at it from this stance, if you keep the system how it is people don't have to work as hard to get stronger and people who have previously rped here automatically don't need to do much in order to better there character and can sit complacent and not promote as much social and combat roleplay.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:17 pm

Again....if you guys want it changed then bring about a vote and it will get done. This kind of stuff needs to be done during this stage. After this Beta BS is over huge conversions and the such won't be so easy or accepted. Keep in mind we are AGAIN asking people to modify their profiles if we do this. The frustration will again be there and I'm not giving freebies out to pacify anyone this time because this will be a member based decision. But in reference "YOU" was never just staff it was members and staff included who voiced there opinion on this decision. I'm not going to make this choice....give it a time limit and vote it out...majority rules will try to compromise for minority.

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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:53 pm

Ok added the Poll and i just used you a theoretically example Amatsu i already know you wouldent just abuse the character though you might use himt to sture up rping. And as far as the cost goes im not saying what to change the new cost to if we do change it that was just a show of what i thought the prestige cost was to what they really were. And i do get that this is not ingoo and a whole new universe with a whole new logic.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:52 pm

I personally don't see an issue with the prices because the thought prices are the cost of rank up from the previous level. You only have to add them together when buying a certain level ability right off bat. For example(of how I see it working):

Everyone with one power starts with one free C RANK ABILITY for that power. Now say you want to rank that C-RANK ABILITY up to B-RANK.

c-rank > b-rank will cost you 50 prestige to rank up.

Now say you want a NEW ABILITY but want it to be B-RANK when you get it. Well, since you don't have the PREVIOUS RANKS already you can't just skip them. So you have to pay for all up to B-RANK.

D(20) + C(30) + B(50) = 100 Prestige for a NEW ABILITY at that level.

I believe the point is so you can ROLEPLAY your powers progress rather than just being this almighty hero/villain from the jump. You want to role play with your powers at their weakest and just show through topics and occasional rank ups the growth. It adds quality to your character and time spent. HOWEVER, I can understand if that doesn't fit your needs at certain periods because sometimes for even story purposes you awaken a strong ability and need it at it's more efficient rank. I get it, but that takes time still.

Now MY ISSUE with the ranks is that there is a D-RANK for seemingly no reason. There are no D-RANK attributes(i.e strength) So why do we pay for something we'll never use. You pretty much can't create a D-rank ability but you have to pay for it anyway. If I'm incorrect then someone explain to me the purpose of the D-Rank. Otherwise, that can go entirely from the system since you don't use it anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:44 am

Agree with Axel here.

I personally like the high prices because it makes people have to work. It will take time for your character to develop and become strong. It isn't just a month long process where your power caps out. With the exception of the incredibly OP few that are strong returning members.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:57 am

Axel Taylor wrote:

Now MY ISSUE with the ranks is that there is a D-RANK for seemingly no reason.  There are no D-RANK attributes(i.e strength)  So why do we pay for something we'll never use.  You pretty much can't create a D-rank ability but you have to pay for it anyway.  If I'm incorrect then someone explain to me the purpose of the D-Rank.  Otherwise, that can go entirely from the system since you don't use it anyway.

Biggest +1 from me. Recommending the removal of the D-rank.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:26 am

D-Rank was originally made for people who wanted small powers. That complained that C-rank cost too much. Things like prestidigitation or changing somethings color ...little dumb shyt like that. If you guys want to nuke it go for it.

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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:38 am


Well i propose a guide be made as to what Abilites cand do at what rank. Making it easier to not only make but grade abilites. But also i say either keep D ranks or Ice them and make what would be possible at D rank things you can do without registering an Ability. That would make them non combat and for support use only as it would be simple thing like a fire user making a a fire on top of his finger to light a cigaret. Just lil basic things like that. though thats just an idea
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:17 pm

*ermm... hello everyone*

So, ermm I ask kinda sorta asked about this via a skype question, so I just post my thoughts up here.

At first, this topic confused me... it seemed to be "change prestige cost" but then evolved into a "old members get more stuff making it unfair". I ask, why not both?

Perhaps when the site gets out of beta, there is 1-3 months of a lower prestige cost to offset the fact that "oldbie" (Read as elitists) get more prestige. While I do not 100% agree with "returning" members getting a bonus, I do agree that returning members should get A bonus. Maybe instead of "reclaiming" what was there's, they get something like

All New Members get +15 Prestige

All Old Members get +25 Prestige

And that's it, none of this "lulz I had 500 prestige from when the site died, gunna levels up" stuff.

On a unrelated note, I was looking through "abilities and powers" (blanket for the numerous topic's dealing about these). I see no "cap" on how many S rank stuff a person can have... I really think such a thing should be considered, as there are limits to human, divine and otherworldly forms can achieve. Otherwise we get people just "sitting" on ancient thrones waiting for a "world shaker" so they can dust themselves off and go beat them off, only to return to obscurity until the next threat. Al la "Where the fuck is the hulk during Iron Man and Thor movies... 1/2 punches could easily kill... everyone from him" standard.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:43 pm

Ill give another 48 hrs on this vote.

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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:22 pm

@Scarecrow

Touching on your last point. Personally, I don't really agree in limiting the amount of work someone can put into a character. The whole premise of many of these sites (or at least the ones made by our general group) is that if you put in the work for it, you'll get it. What we can do is limit what can be gotten, and S-ranks aren't ever really the issue in my opinion. It has been this ability to stack stuff for greater effects that leads us to the main problem. These great thrones of power, in the cases of Amen, Chrony and so on, were massive stat stacks. I'd propose a different thing for the same purpose, limit stacking altogether, or get people to choose a particular ability that they could stack to a certain extent.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:39 pm

@Ford

I can understand that, for me its a opinion thing. I'm fine with people spending all day every day grinding. To elaborate my opinion a little. Many of the sites I've come from, tend to create NPC "bosses" to fight such powerful great thrones. To me, that isn't doing/handling it the right way. If someone became that powerful you need a NPC to be on par with them, there is something wrong with the system.

Though, I am confused Ford. If S rank's aren't the issue... and to stack you need multiple S ranks... that seems like something isn't catching right.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:13 pm

Alright, since I was the one that made the typo in the first place, I'll weigh on in some of your concerns. People say that ranking up things is far too expensive, but then don't touch on the fact that you'll get an average of 25 to 30 prestige a topic, just for posting in it.

Then, you will get 5 prestige per post. This means that say you post 5 times in a topic with another person(sort of a short to medium length topic), then you will get 50-55 prestige for that topic, really. So, each topic you are in alots you a C ranked ability.

Save up around 6 topics, one of them being good or long or what have you, and you will have an S ranked ability. This seems fair, right? If we lowered them too much, we would end up having way too many people being strong too quickly, and just destroying cities or what have you. While I would love to have Heroes and Villains mixing it up often, I usually see far more villains than heroes.

These are just my two cents on the matter.

As for the whole "Everyone is reset and starts on equal ground" there were a lot of returning members and staff alike that wanted their previous time on the site to count for something, as they still put a bunch of thought into their characters. I think we should have restricted the "Salvage" to only be able to remake your old character, instead of using it towards making an entirely new one, but still.

I wouldn't mind if the members agreed to have everyone reset to base levels, and the salvage topic taken down, but this would reset everyone to 0 prestige, and we wouldn't be giving out any compensation for redoing your apps, which would need to happen, as Amen/Amatsu said.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:31 pm

Seems legit


Can we vote on if we want prestige per post. Because I really don't think soloing a topic for 2-3 pages of "training" should get you 5*15 * 3 = 225 prestige for being alone.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:53 pm

Scarecrow wrote:
@Ford

I can understand that, for me its a opinion thing. I'm fine with people spending all day every day grinding. To elaborate my opinion a little. Many of the sites I've come from, tend to create NPC "bosses" to fight such powerful great thrones. To me, that isn't doing/handling it the right way. If someone became that powerful you need a NPC to be on par with them, there is something wrong with the system.

Though, I am confused Ford. If S rank's aren't the issue... and to stack you need multiple S ranks... that seems like something isn't catching right.

You could do it with any rank. Part of the issue perhaps.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:37 am

I just find the old members get to salvage is boo boo caka. However you should have to work long and hard to get powerful and do a many topics. It should take a long time to move up, I really dislike being able to insta warp to superpowerful, which mostly happened because of all the prestige thats been dished out. However its still like I've been saving up prestige for a while, now I have enough to go from zero to hero, there is no real progression of abilities, imo.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:50 am

New members are going to possibly get a reward as well, the staff is looking for something to give you all.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:35 am

Exactly what this guys said. Especially the "boo boo caka" part. And I am someone who  benefited from ze salvage v.v

Except before you go resetting for the umpteenth time some of us have been RPing already and have gained prestige so be careful when you hit dat 0 button. Also I like scarecrows idea of just giving flat values. All brand new members get +____ prestige and returning members get +____.

HamSeals wrote:
I just find the old members get to salvage is boo boo caka. However you should have to work long and hard to get powerful and do a many topics. It should take a long time to move up, I really dislike being able to insta warp to superpowerful, which mostly happened because of all the prestige thats been dished out. However its still like I've been saving up prestige for a while, now I have enough to go from zero to hero, there is no real progression of abilities, imo.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:36 am

Zero is feasible. Speaking directly at Remy and his/her compatriots in the RP at the moment, all of the Prestige gained from those has a paper trail. For example, the post reward is on your sidebar and the topic that I graded can be added on separately. As long as people can note down the Prestige they've gained independent of the Salvage we should be fine.

As a quick note, you'd need to up those values considerably to make them even worthwhile Scarecrow. 150-ish should be a fine amount. Also, how would we wish to define returning members and new ones entirely? For example, if you just made a character then went inactive without posting I'm not sure I'd really consider you a member of the site in the spirit of the sense. Literally you are, but you didn't contribute meaningfully to the site aside from filling out a few forms.

Hopefully this is one of the last kinks to be worked out, this will already require editting and re-submission of all of the previously approved apps who used the Prestige. Also, I'm getting sick of this compensation business as Keita mentioned. Re-doing your apps like this should not give any rewards. Dunno, its just getting to the point of us running out mouths without actually moving towards a proper decision so I'm going to summarise what I think we've agreed on so far.

No one has really seemed to disagree with the idea of removing the salvage benefit insofar (even if this hasn't really been the topic of discussion for it originally).
Quick +1s or -1s in your posts and we'll get on with removing it while we discuss whatever else we feel like doing. Just tryna keep the momentum going, too easy to stagnate in these spots.
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PostSubject: Re: Must Read: Prestige Cost   Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:22 am

I proposed closing the Salvage so that no one else can do it. Meaning only those that already did it would get anything from it and thats not many. And just making a site opening Bonus that would be the same for all old and new members. This way those who already did apps dont have to change anything but will also even out new and old members. This way those who already did the Salvage wont complain about lossing it and new members cant complain about a ton of old members coming back and getting a whole bunch of Prestige. This equaling a win win for both parties
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